Episode #18:

Create a Life Better than the Buzz with Jennifer Cruikshank

I have a fascinating episode for you this week! We’re going to be discussing alcohol or as you might know it – ‘The Buzz’! So many people revert to drinking alcohol to cope with day-to-day life, difficult situations, or a range of other circumstances. Now, we’re not talking about full-blown addiction here – as that would require an individual to seek professional help – we’re referring to a general consumption of alcohol that whilst manageable, might be verging on the line of uncomfortable.

This week’s guest – fellow certified life coach, Jennifer Cruikshank – specializes in helping women change their drinking patterns and become more resilient in their lives. Combining her life coach experience with her Master’s degree in Counselling Psychology, she helps her clients manage their relationships with alcohol by learning to understand their habits and figuring out why they might be drinking more than they’d like to be.

Join us this week where we’ll be discussing why our brains have been conditioned to enjoy and expect alcohol, and how these cravings can often get the better of us! We’ll learn how habits are formed without us realizing, and how Jennifer’s simple but effective acronym – AIM – can help us understand our own habits in order to curb the cravings, once and for all!

WHAT YOU’LL DISCOVER

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How to create a life you don’t need to escape from.

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Why your brain creates habits and how to break them.

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The relationship between your brain and alcohol.

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Why your brain is working exactly as it’s designed to.

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Why you might be drinking too much alcohol.

FEATURED ON THE SHOW

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Check out more episodes of the podcast here!

TRANSCRIPT

Susan Crockett: Welcome to Becoming Virtuosa, the podcast, with Dr. Susan Crockett. You are listening to episode number 18: Create a Life Better than the Buzz, an interview with fellow certified life coach, Jennifer Cruikshank. This episode is dedicated to all of those, all of you who struggle with the buzz.
  
Female Announcer: Welcome to Becoming Virtuosa, where women learn to love their lives. Do you find yourself frustrated by society’s expectations? Looking for practical advice on how to discover your talents and level up your life? You’ve found the right place. Here’s your host, US News top doctor, robotic surgeon and certified life coach, Dr. Susan Crockett.

Susan Crockett: Hello, my virtuosos and my VITs, my virtuosos in training, I’m your host, Dr. Susan Crockett; you can call me Sue, because we’re having girl talk. And we are having a very special episode today. Before we get into that I want to tell you a little story about something that happened to me this week.

I commute from where I live, which is about 30 miles outside of San Antonio, I drive into the hospital. And yesterday I was driving into the hospital and about two-thirds of the way there; I was on the highway going 70 miles an hour. And I looked down on my left window next to my rear view, or my driver’s side little mirror that looks on the side of the car and there is this giant katydid sitting there.
  
So for those of you that are not familiar with Texas bugs, we grow everything big in Texas. A katydid is related to a grasshopper but it’s a little cuter and a pretty big bug, it’s about three or four centimeters in length. And it looks like a green leaf; its wings look just like kind of curved pretty green leaves. And it’s got these ginormous antlers, so it’s called a – some people call it the long horned grasshopper.
  
Anyway, there was this katydid and it was on the outside of my window and it was hanging on to the window, on the edge of the window while I was going 70 something miles an hour. The wind was ripping it and I’m sitting there looking at this little bug, I’m like, “Oh my gosh.” First of all it was just this amazing creature, it’s beautiful, and then I’m like, “How is this thing hanging on, how in the world?” It’s got amazing strength, it’s got these scrawny little legs and it’s on the outside of the glass, how in the world is it not just getting blown off and smothered to smithereens?
  
And I thought, you know what, this is a really good story to start off the talk for today, because today what we’re talking about is creating a life that’s better than the buzz, the buzz being alcohol. And this episode is for all of you guys who are, you know that you’re not an alcoholic, you’re functional, you don’t need to be admitted to an outpatient treatment center. But it’s for all of you who think once in a while just maybe I should be drinking just a little bit less, maybe I should cut back.
  
And I think this little metaphor about this bug hanging on is sometimes what happens to us in life. And a lot of times I see my patients, my friends and they’re using this alcohol, sometimes daily. But I don’t know whether that makes them a total drunk or unable to function, they’re just using it to help hang on to life. I’m going to suggest that maybe if this little bug can do it, that we can get some encouragement from that.
  
So today I’m doing an interview with one of my certified life coaches from Virtuosa Coaching. Her name is Jennifer Cruikshank and she is a certified life coach, but she also has a master’s degree in counseling psychology. And she has a practice that does this. She helps women, patients, people, primarily women who have the idea that maybe they just want to cut back a little bit. She helps us look at our lives in the way that we do as virtuosas, in that she helps us evaluate what joy, what would life look like if we were drinking less or not drinking?
  
So she doesn’t require you to stop drinking, there’s no labels here, there’s also some disclaimer and disclosure going into this podcast. So what we are doing here in this conversation between she and I, that I’m going to get to in just a minute, this is not a substitution for medical care. So what she does is different than treatment for alcoholism. And for any of you who are struggling with alcoholism, I would totally encourage you to seek medical treatment and therapy and there’s lots of other ways to approach alcohol.
  
This way specifically is a way that helps people understand and de-condition their habit so they can decrease their desire for it. So it’s addressing one part of the pathway in our brains which is the habit pathway, and this is applicable to any bad habit. She has a way of helping people see where they’re stuck, where their brains are getting in the way. So we’re not talking about the medical condition of being dependent on alcohol here, or the bad effects of it in your body, which we’re all well aware of.
  
This technique and what we’re talking about today is specifically a tool about helping manage your brain around where you’re stuck and where the habits are. She helps us to learn and apply tools for creating lives where we don’t need to take the edge off or have a buzz or escape from whatever’s going on. And so this is more of an educational type of program versus a medical diagnosis or advice, or substance abuse treatment.
  
And this is important for me, for you guys to understand too, because as a physician what I’m offering here today is not medical advice or diagnosis. We are having a conversation about education, about some other tools that can be used in addition to those things, about de-conditioning ourselves for habits. So maybe drinking is not your thing, maybe you have other habits, like overeating or overspending. In any case I think you’ll find this interview fascinating, and so let’s get on with it, welcome, Jennifer.

Alright, my virtuosas, I am so excited to introduce you to my friend, Jennifer Cruikshank, today. She is a fellow certified life coach, and also has a master’s degree in counseling psychology. She specializes in helping women change their drinking patterns and become more resilient, which fits in really great with the theme of our podcast in becoming virtuosa, or becoming the best version of our feminine selves.
  
Most of what I see in my practice and with my friends are women who are very functional, live very happy lives but just kind of get into that habit of drinking wine every night or drinking a little bit more than they want to. And I love Jennifer’s approach to this, it may not be for everybody, we mentioned in the intro that this is not for people who are having serious alcohol dependencies or anything like that. But Jennifer has a lot of really great information to share. We’re going to have a fun conversation today, so I’m going to invite you to listen in on our girl talk.
  
Hey, Jennifer, how are you today?
Jennifer Cruikshank: Hi, Sue. I’m great, how are you?
Susan Crockett: I am having a great Saturday. I have my little Ollie dog next to me. He’s always behind me.
Jennifer Cruikshank: Oh, literally, in your chair. Now, you know I have an Ollie too.
Susan Crockett: You do?
Jennifer Cruikshank: Yeah, I mean named Ollie, but he can’t be in here because he’s a barker.
Susan Crockett: So a quick, thanks. Thanks, Jennifer, our listeners thank you too. Jen, we all have our ways of coming to life coaching, we all have our stories and my listeners have heard my story. But one of the fun things about doing these interview podcasts is I’m getting to hear my individual coaches’ stories. So tell me how you came to become a certified life coach, and, particularly, how did you end up in this niche with the alcohol?
Jennifer Cruikshank: Sure. So I came to life coaching and sort of this niche with alcohol in the same way. I had been struggling to get traction with my drinking for years. I never considered myself a heavy drinker, I never had any major consequences like a DUI. I wasn’t ever passing out on my kids at home, anything like that. And I was drinking more than I wanted and more often than I wanted. And I didn’t like how I was feeling as a result. I had also started to think more about what I was role modeling for my kids.
Susan Crockett: Right. I think that’s something that a lot of our listeners can relate to, yeah, it’s just kind of around and they start thinking, is this really what I want for my life and for my kids. And then what?
Jennifer Cruikshank: Well, so then I, you know, so I would try to cut back or take a break and I did this on numerous occasions. And every time I would start strong, but eventually I would lose momentum or I would replace it with a different habit I didn’t want, like zoning out in front of Netflix or like volumes of popcorn.
Susan Crockett: Right. Just another form of buffering, doing something where you’re not being productive.
Jennifer Cruikshank: And I had no idea that’s what was going on at the time. In fact I had started to think like I was broken, something was wrong with me. And so I turned to the Google for answers, and just the mainstream solutions I was finding felt more extreme than what I needed.
And also just I didn’t like the idea of being powerless over alcohol, didn’t really resonate with me. And I didn’t want to wear a label for the rest of my life that I didn’t necessarily think applied. And I didn’t want to seek out a group really. I wasn’t comfortable with that at that point to do this. I just felt like, hey, I’m just drinking a little more than I want, I feel like there’s a missing puzzle piece here I need to figure out.
Susan Crockett: So you know what, I think this idea is worth sitting and talking about for just a minute. Because I’m aware that there are a lot of different programs, a lot of different philosophies about alcohol and alcoholism, certainly within the medical field where we have labeled it as a disease, and there’s disease process that happens as a result of it. And those things are all legitimate.
But part of the idea of doing this Becoming Virtuosa podcast, part of the main idea about it is in learning to become ourselves, becoming a virtuosa is becoming the absolute best version of yourself, which that’s an easy tagline. But what it really means is listening to that still small knowing that’s inside of you and figuring out where it lines up with what you see in the world and where it doesn’t.
And I think these different ways of looking at alcoholism and alcohol abuse, substance abuse, alcohol overuse or overdrinking, there are many different problems. And there are many different solutions.
And I think what’s important for our listeners, as they’re listening to us talk about this particular way of thinking, is that I see you, Jennifer, listening to your heart. What you were seeing in the solution that you had didn’t fit, it wasn’t a one size fits all box, but you were able to find that piece inside of you that said, “No, I’m going to listen to that still small voice for what’s right for me.” And that was you becoming your virtuosa self.
Jennifer Cruikshank: Yes.
Susan Crockett: You didn’t call it that.
Jennifer Cruikshank: No.
Susan Crockett: Right. So it doesn’t discount or discredit the other types of programs, those speak to people at their soul level and are very important to them. And I think when we have something like this which can be a hot button or hot topic. That the reason people get really excited, or upset, or angry, or passionate about it is because of that soul connection to what feels like truth for them and they’re listening to their soul.
So I thought that was a really important piece for us to talk about. I love how it fits into the whole theme of us as women listening to our hearts, our souls and coming into greater connection with our, whatever we call, God or our spiritual center. So when you started looking at this for overdrinking, and you noticed that those things were incongruent, or they didn’t seem true to you, how did you find this something other? Where did that come from?
Jennifer Cruikshank: Well, I had a lucky conversation with a friend of mine, Mike, one night, he was sort of on a similar path. And he had – he was just taking a different approach, he had sort of set aside these mainstream approaches and was just really questioning his assumptions about alcohol. Just common beliefs in the cultural narrative, like alcohol makes you more fun or everybody drinks, just these kind of foundational beliefs we have been – about alcohol.
And I thought, well, that’s interesting, I hadn’t thought about it, I assumed all those things were true about alcohol. But then I started to think is that really true? And so I think him talking to me about that just sort of set me on this path of looking for, at first, challenging the beliefs I had about it.
And just piecing together, you know, my background in counseling psychology where I had studied a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy. And then coming across Brooke Castillo’s work at the Life Coach School, I sort of combined those two into what became a lasting solution for me, and that’s what I now offer clients.
Susan Crockett: That is so cool, that is really cool. So tell me a little bit about how you begin with clients, tell me about this thing that you teach called The Learning Model and how that fits into all of this.
Jennifer Cruikshank: Yeah, so you referred to some of the frameworks that our society has traditionally used to explain alcohol use, like the disease model and the genetic model. There’s that sort of character flaw thinking, like you need more willpower, that sort of thing.
But then I came across the Learning Model which really resonated for me and seemed to explain my experience. And the Learning Model basically just says that drinking is a learned habit. So in other words, over time and through repeated action we inadvertently taught our brains to expect a reward in the form of alcohol, in response to certain cues like situations, time of day, particular emotions. And by the reward of alcohol I mean that dopamine hit you get, that’s pleasurable.
And also for many of us alcohol can provide relief from uncomfortable emotion like boredom, loneliness, sadness, stress.
Susan Crockett: Anxiety, yeah.
Jennifer Cruikshank: We talk about anxiety is a big one that people seek really through alcohol for it. Of course it ultimately doesn’t work because alcohol is throwing your body out of homeostasis, but that initial drink, it does help to relax you, so.
Susan Crockett: So if I’m hearing you right, we’re not saying that alcohol doesn’t have physical effects on the body that reinforce the addiction at all, because we know that those things exist. But what I hear you saying is that there’s a groove, a pathway, a habit that in addition to the physical addiction of alcohol, there is a brain neural pathway. Like any other habit like biting your nails or I don’t know really.
Jennifer Cruikshank: You’re exactly right. But the reward that alcohol gives you is so much greater than the dopamine hit you get from biting your nails.
Susan Crockett: That’s the thing.
Jennifer Cruikshank: So that’s why it becomes such a groove, that neural pathway, it becomes, our brain learns the pattern well. And so once our brain has come to expect this reward in certain situations, it then starts to present itself as cravings, urges, desire. That’s the conditioned expectation. But the good news is that since it’s learned, you can unlearn it is the idea.
Susan Crockett: Can you give me a review of how you teach your clients how to unlearn this, how do you use your psychology skills to do that?
Jennifer Cruikshank: Sure. Well, mostly I use the coaching tools because I have found that that is the best most direct way to affect change, in my opinion. So I use the three letter acronym, AIM as a guide, A.I.M.
Susan Crockett: A.I.M, okay, AIM, got it.
Jennifer Cruikshank: AIM, so the A is for allow, and that means allowing the craving you experience to go unanswered. And this is different from how we usually respond to a craving. Usually we do one of three things when we experience a craving or urge. We react, which just means we have the drink and that reinforces and strengthens the habit. We might distract ourselves, and that’s what I was doing a lot of the time with that other numbing behavior, the eating, the Netflix.
I also throw in this category, avoiding maybe social situations where you’re going to be, you know, friends will be drinking or something and you don’t want to be exposed to that. And then a third way is resisting, and that’s kind of what we think of as the white knuckling, like holding on for dear life, the fighting against it.
Susan Crockett: Yeah. So how is allowing different, what does an allow look like?
Jennifer Cruikshank: Yeah. So from the outside, allowing might resemble resisting, but it’s different in that instead of fighting against, like bracing yourself against the craving, you’re opening up to it. You’re letting it in, and from an observer’s perspective, you’re watching it run its course.
Susan Crockett: Like you’re just noticing what your brain’s doing. We’ve taught our listeners in earlier podcasts about being the watcher, where you step back and watch your brain. Is that what allowing looks like?
Jennifer Cruikshank: That’s exactly what I’m talking about. But I’m also adding this piece of like watching it in your body. And that’s really what allowing the urge is, so you sort of sink into your body. I like to start by telling people, “Remind yourself that nothing’s gone wrong, your brain is doing exactly what it was designed to do.”
Susan Crockett: Wait, wait. What?
Jennifer Cruikshank: I know.
Susan Crockett: Really? So, say that again, nothing’s gone wrong, seriously?
Jennifer Cruikshank: Right. Well, our brains evolve to be efficient, so when we repeat a thought, a feeling and an action, which is what happens when we drink, we have the thought that we would like the drink. We have a feeling or a desire for the alcohol and then we have it, we reward ourselves with it. We create that neural pathway and when our brain sees it’s a pattern, it wants to be efficient, so it kicks it to, that pattern to your lower brain where it run on autopilot. I mean I think of all the habits you have in your day-to-day life that serve you.
Susan Crockett: Even just driving to work, I don’t have to think about it, it’s on autopilot because I’ve run that groove, that highway so many times, my car drives it by itself.
Jennifer Cruikshank: Exactly. And that’s kind of the situation we get into with alcohol, so.
Susan Crockett: Fascinating.
Jennifer Cruikshank: Yeah. So you’re reminding yourself that nothing’s gone wrong, you just take a breath, you remind yourself you’re safe in this moment. Because a lot of us have been avoiding these cravings for so long, we have become kind of afraid of them, that they’re going to overwhelm us and never go away.
So you just breathe and then you watch it in your body, you start to notice where it is. Does it feel like a buzzing in your head? Is it heavy in your stomach? Is it tight in your chest? You just watch it, watch. Does it move? You can ask yourself questions about it. Just describe it to yourself. And you’ll see that eventually it will rise, it will crest, it will start to decrease and eventually pass.
Susan Crockett: Like within a couple of minutes?
Jennifer Cruikshank: Yeah, it can, absolutely.
Susan Crockett: How long does it usually take?
Jennifer Cruikshank: Well, they say that a feeling takes – which is what that desire for alcohol is, is a feeling, they say that it takes a feeling 90 seconds to run a chemical path in your body. I know that sounds totally ridiculous to most people because…
Susan Crockett: It sounds awesome, if I just have to sit there and watch it for 90 seconds. I was thinking a lot longer, so yeah.
Jennifer Cruikshank: Well, yeah, well, the problem is, is that we then feed that feeling with a lot of thoughts. So if you just watch it in your body, it could potentially run its course in 90 seconds. For some people it’s more, especially when you’re starting out. But when we feed it with thoughts like – I mean our brain’s just going to offer us a lot of sort of thoughts to give you permission.
Susan Crockett: Chatter.
Jennifer Cruikshank: Yeah, like just one won’t hurt, you can start tomorrow, it’s no big deal. Everybody drinks.
Susan Crockett: And if you just allow that to go too, and just watch it and be, “Oh yeah, brain, okay toddler, go, okay, I see you, we want to do it this way.”
Jennifer Cruikshank: Right, yeah. You tell yourself, “Oh, this is not fair, I feel deprived.” It’s going to keep it there a lot longer, but 90 seconds to 10 minutes. But yeah, so you’re just going to watch it in your body at first. And I mean like I said, this probably sounds like a crazy plan to a lot of people, but because we think cravings need to be avoided. But they’re bearable, they’re unpleasant but most people describe them as a feeling of restlessness.
Susan Crockett: And it gets better over time as you get used to allowing it, and then the urge goes away to the point that you don’t have the desire so much?
Jennifer Cruikshank: Correct, yeah.
Susan Crockett: Or at all, right?
Jennifer Cruikshank: Absolutely. 
Susan Crockett: So that’s the A, the allowing, AIM, what’s I? Tell me about I
Jennifer Cruikshank: So I is for investigate, and that’s where you’re really digging into the fuel for your habit. And by this I mean the thoughts which we have alluded to some, the emotions and the situational cues that are attached to the habit. So you’re looking for what thoughts come before your craving. It could just be something very innocent and simple like I deserve one.
Susan Crockett: I’ve had a hard day.
Jennifer Cruikshank: I’ve had a hard day, yeah. What thoughts or convincing excuses come up during a craving is something else you want to look for, I mentioned one won’t hurt. What beliefs do you have about alcohol that seem true? And these are the things that are part of our cultural narrative, it’s glamorous or way more fun when we drink. And then this is a big one, what situations does alcohol make easier for you? In other words…
Susan Crockett: Not what I thought you were going to say, I thought you were going to say in what situations are there triggers, but you kind of flipped that around to what situations.
Jennifer Cruikshank: Yeah, does alcohol make easier for you? What emotions does it make easier for you to handle? And this is an important one to pause on because most of us try to cut back or quit drinking because of the negative consequences of alcohol. But in doing so we kind of overlook what alcohol was doing for us, what problem it was solving for us. And so when stress does build up or we have had a bad day or we have decision fatigue, that old programming of a drink will fix this for me kind of comes in again. And that’s when we find ourselves back in it.
Susan Crockett: Okay, so A is for allowing, I is for investigate, what is M for? Tell me about M.
Jennifer Cruikshank: M for mind management, and this is where all the tools you teach on the Becoming Virtuosa podcast come into play. The mind management helps us build our emotional resilience and mitigate stressors through our day so we don’t need to take the edge off it. And it helps create lives that we don’t want to escape from through alcohol.
Susan Crockett: So that’s the part where we’re building the lives that we want to build on purpose, that abundance life so that we’re enjoying it so much that we don’t feel like drinking.
Jennifer Cruikshank: That’s the goal, that’s the goal, yeah.
Susan Crockett: Cool, okay. So, AIM.
Jennifer Cruikshank: Yeah, and AIM works to retrain your brain because like we said, the brain likes to be efficient. So when it realizes that that craving isn’t getting rewarded with alcohol, your brain will eventually learn to stop asking for it. Just like a toddler who’s used to getting candy, who no longer gets it, is going to realize the tantrum is not working.
Susan Crockett: Not working. My Ollie is sitting behind me and we train our pets for behavior, so it’s the same thing.
Jennifer Cruikshank: Exactly, exactly.
Susan Crockett: Fascinating. Alright, so great interview, Jennifer, great tools, I think our listeners are really going to enjoy hearing about the AIM tools and this different way of thinking about alcohol. Tell me what your bottom line is, bring it on home, if you want to just leave our listeners with a big main thought of encouragement for them, what would you say?
Jennifer Cruikshank: I think the bottom line for this is that I want people to know they aren’t broken; their brain is built to be efficient and to create habits and to seek pleasure. And if you’re struggling with drinking it actually means that your brain is working as it was designed. And once you understand that you can start to harness your brain’s desire for efficiency, and create a new habit that works in your favor.
Susan Crockett: It’s so cool, you are not broken, I love that. That’s a great thought to carry with us into the week. Jennifer, I want to thank you so much for interviewing with us today, this has been great information. It’s been a lot of fun talking with you.
Jennifer Cruikshank: It was a pleasure, thanks, Sue.
Susan Crockett: Would you just tell our listeners, if they want to work with you, how they would find you?
Jennifer Cruikshank: Of course. Well, they can of course find me at Virtuosa Coaching.
Susan Crockett: Yes, awesome.
Jennifer Cruikshank: If they have more questions or are interested in working together. And if they would like to know more about me or my approach they can also check out my website which is thevividlife.com. And they can find me on Instagram and Facebook, there’s links to those at The Vivid Life.
Susan Crockett: Perfect. And we’ll put those in our show notes below the podcast so they can find those and check it out. And yeah, great, thank you so much, have a wonderful week.
Jennifer Cruikshank: Alright, you too, thanks, Sue.
Susan Crockett: Bye.
Jennifer Cruikshank: Bye.

Wasn’t that an amazing interview? You are not broken, you are not broken and you’re not alone, your brain has been built to be efficient, to create habits, to seek pleasures. If you’re struggling with overdrinking it actually means your brain isn’t working as it’s designed. And so now that you have that idea you can move forward creating new habits that work in your favor, so cool. Like we said in the beginning, this can apply to any kind of habits and that’s the really good news is we don’t have to be stuck with our habits, we have tools to be able to overcome them.
  
Okay, so now I’m getting to the part of the podcast, this is my favorite part where we get to talk about what we’re listening to and reading. Today we’re listening to Hallelujah, so my favorite cover of this song is Jeff Buckley’s cover. And I love it because he starts with this big breath just like this. And then he goes into this beautiful melody in the song by Leonard Cohen and just it’s an amazing song.
I chose this today because as we’re going through life, and specifically when we’re talking about something like this that can be an emotionally charged subject that a lot of people are passionate about. I think that having different versions of the same theme is important because we’re all going to like different versions of it. We’re all going to find different versions that resonate with us, music is a sound wave, it resonates. It’s just like finding the right thing that works for you in developing the habits and the life that you want. Not everything is going to fit everybody.
  
So I love the song, Hallelujah, it’s one of my favorite ones, I have a playlist with lots of different versions of it in fact. And I’m putting the link for that in the podcast notes from today. So I’ve got a YouTube playlist, it’s not mind, I found it, it’s by somebody else, but it has about 37 covers with some of my favorite covers of the song, and lots of different versions. I hope you enjoy listening to that.
  
And then what we’re reading this week is a book called This Naked Mind by Annie Grace. This book in and of itself is therapy. It’s an interesting walk through the mind thought process regarding alcohol. And as the person reads the book it actually helps them to consider their thoughts and offer different thoughts to the mind. And by the time you get to the end of the book you have this whole bank of other thoughts that you can choose to think around your habits, specifically alcohol is what she talks about.
So, Annie Grace, This Naked Mind, excellent book, a different approach to cutting back drinking, because this subject is such a hot topic, we also put lots of links to other resources in the podcast notes. I’m not going to go through them all here but I did want to just make sure that you have the links to Jennifer’s and her website and her resources, so check that out in the podcast notes.
Alright, so next week we’re going to be doing another hot topic, I can’t get away from these, it’s so much fun. So we’re going to be talking with Amanda Kingsley. And we’re going to be talking about reproductive health and justice, reproductive health, reproductive justice and coaching, our thoughts around reproductive health and justice, injustice.
  
Okay, my virtuosos, looking forward to it. Have a wonderful week. Love you so much. Love always, Sue. And I will see you next week in episode 19.
  
Female Announcer: Thanks for listening to this episode of Becoming Virtuosa. If you want to find out more, come check out virtuosacoaching.com. That’s virtuosa - with an A - coaching.com. See you next week.

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