Episode #29:

How to Allow Urges with Penny Gambill

Have you ever noticed that when you tell yourself to stop doing something and really focus on not doing it, you seem to want it even more?! There’s a scientific reason to that – your brain thinks you need it because that’s how it’s been conditioned. Today’s guest, Penny Gambill, is here to tell us more!

Penny Gambill is a Stop Over-Drinking coach who became a life coach following her own experiences with over-drinking. After she found herself drinking way too much, she ended up in rehab and knew that she needed to curb the over-drinking once and for all. She now teaches other women to do the same and joins me to explain why managing our urges can help us live a more content life. Disclaimer: if you’re physically addicted to alcohol, this episode will not provide answers and you should seek the advice of your physician or treatment facility. If you’re struggling to cut back and looking for advice and guidance on how to do so, this episode can help!

Tune in this week for a fascinating discussion about urges and discover why they become so much stronger when we try to resist them. We’ll learn some techniques to manage our cravings and understand how to decondition our desires in the same way we conditioned them in the first place. We’re all human and we’re all just doing our best, but it’s better to allow our urges if we wish to get them under control. This episode will show you how!

WHAT YOU’LL DISCOVER

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What an urge is and why it can be a problem.

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Why it is better to allow an urge than resist it, and how to do so.

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How to decondition the subconscious brain.

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The importance of boundaries when it comes to responding to urges.

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Why over-indulging in something doesn’t mean you have to completely stop.

FEATURED ON THE SHOW

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Check out more episodes of the podcast here!

TRANSCRIPT

Susan Crockett: Welcome to Becoming Virtuosa, the podcast, with Dr. Susan Crockett. You are listening to episode number 29: How to Allow Urges. An interview with fellow Certified Life Coach, Penny Gamble. This episode is dedicated to Penny’s husband, Damian for always being so stinking supportive. Got to love that, right? Awesome.

Female Announcer: Welcome to Becoming Virtuosa, where women learn to love their lives. Do you find yourself frustrated by society’s expectations? Looking for practical advice on how to discover your talents and level up your life? You’ve found the right place. Here’s your host, US News top doctor, robotic surgeon and Certified Life Coach, Dr. Susan Crockett.

Susan Crockett: Hello, my virtuosas. Hello, my virtuosas in training. We are working on becoming the best version of ourselves, our virtuosa selves. And I am your host, Dr. Susan Crockett; you can call me Sue because we’re having girl talk on here. And I’m so happy to be taking with you today.

This last week or so I’ve really been working on paying attention to taking care of myself, asking myself on a daily basis, what’s the best thing I can do in this moment to take care of me? And ironically what it’s done is made me really become aware of my urges and desires.

And this weekend I was walking around the house on Saturday morning and I kept getting this urge to go workout, to put on my tennis shoes and go for a run. And that’s something I really like to do and it kept nagging at me. It kept nagging at me and all of a sudden I realized it was an urge, kind of like the urge to have Cheetos. And I wondered to myself, I’m like, why is it so easy to give in to the urge for the Cheetos and yet so difficult for me to give in to the urge to go exercise?

So I kind of threw my hands up in the air, metaphorically at least and I went and put on my shoes and had a wonderful run. And I’m feeling so good today. It’s a great day. So I am excited to do this interview, to bring this interview to you. It’s a wonderful talk with Penny Gamble; she is a stop over-drinking coach. She’s going to talk today about how to allow urges and not give in to them, so not giving into the ones that you don’t want, the opposite of giving in to the one that says go exercise.

So she comes from an interesting background. She was in a place where she was having difficulty drinking. And she really got to a place where she was told that she either had to admit that she had a problem and was an alcoholic, or that she was normal and could drink like everybody else.

And what she found and what she realized is that there are other options available. And you can learn how to say no to a drink and not feel deprived. You don’t have to feel terrible about that. And you can get to a place where your desire for alcohol does not overcome what you want to do with your life and what it means to take care of yourself. So you can de-condition your desire, change how you think about alcohol.

So there is a disclaimer that goes along with this show today. If you are an alcoholic or physically addicted to alcohol then this is not a program for you. We strongly recommend that if you’re physically addicted you seek the advice of your physician or a treatment facility. But for those of you who are not in that place and just struggling with maybe thinking maybe you should cut back on how much you’re drinking in the evenings or when you get really upset with the kids. Take a listen, it’s a good show, she’s got some good tips for us.

Penny Gamble: Hello.
Susan Crockett: How are you doing today?

Penny Gamble: I am great, Sue, so happy to be here to talk to you.

Susan Crockett: What are you going to talk with us about today?

Penny Gamble: I want to talk about urges.

Susan Crockett: My favorite topic. And I have heard this topic so many times and I can never get enough of it because I keep needing to hear it. And I’m anxious to hear how you describe this and what you have to teach our listeners today. So tell me a little bit about yourself and how you got to be a coach who specializes in urges of all things? I’m like, oh, good grief.

Penny Gamble: Well, so I’m a stop over-drinking coach, hence the expertise with the urges.

Susan Crockett: Okay, wait, wait, wait. I want you to explain that even, because I bet there’s some people listening who just went, “What, you’re what, what, the what, she’s a what?” Yeah, talk to me about the stop over-drinking and how that’s different than just stop drinking?

Penny Gamble: Stop drinking, okay. Well, so I help women who are finding themselves drinking more than they would like to. And they’re just uncomfortable about it for various reasons. They don’t like how it makes them feel the next day. And they have ambitions for their life, and alcohol just is getting in the way. And that was my story in a big way. That was my story.

Susan Crockett: I know a lot of people like that. I have a lot of patients that are like that. And they struggle and they go to, you know, they try all different kinds of things. And this idea about stopping over-drinking without completely stopping, or moderating, or even there being something in between being a full blown alcoholic and teetotaler is kind of a new concept.

Penny Gamble: Yeah. So along those lines, that’s interesting, you’ve just made me think of something. That a lot of times we have this stigma around alcohol, either it’s good, and everyone’s doing it, and if you can’t drink normally then something’s wrong with you. It’s good or it’s bad. And you have a problem. So it’s just we put it in black and white categories. And that really isn’t how it works. There’s 50 shades of grey here. And alcohol really is not – it isn’t good or bad, it isn’t right or wrong.

Susan Crockett: It’s just a neutral circumstance, isn’t it?

Penny Gamble: Alcohol is neutral. And the fact that you drank last night or think that you over-drank is also neutral.

Susan Crockett: Wow, that’s freeing, isn’t it?

Penny Gamble: It’s so freeing.

Susan Crockett: Wait, wait, wait, back up. Tell us about you and how you came to this, because I’m about ready to delve right into the meat of the conversation. I need to know how you found all of this.

Penny Gamble: Perfect, okay, so I struggled with drinking myself. And I, in my opinion, over-drank for basically every single night, I drank a bottle of wine or more every night for over a decade.

Susan Crockett: Goodness gracious.

Penny Gamble: And I took a few breaks here and there, but honestly, this is why how to handle and manage an urge is so important to me, and I think that a missing piece that isn’t focused on enough. Because I would try and take a break, the willpower was not working for me.

Susan Crockett: I don’t think you’re alone in this. I think when I interview patients and talk with them about drinking, I think there’s an awful lot of a bottle of wine a night women out there, I think it’s…

Penny Gamble: It’s common.

Susan Crockett: It’s common, yeah.

Penny Gamble: Yeah, so I did that for 10 years and I just got to a point where the last five of those years it was really getting in my way. I was just not going anywhere with my life. And I had huge ambitions and nothing was getting done. And I even went through rehab. I mean it got so bad, I, at the time, and this was six years ago, but at the time that was what I needed. And I didn’t know about coaching, I didn’t know about – I know about managing your mind, but I just was of the mindset that I think a lot of people are. I didn’t realize there were other options.

I thought that once you created this over-desire for alcohol that it was never going to go away, you just had to learn to live with it.

Susan Crockett: Yeah, we’re taught that.

Penny Gamble: You’re absolutely taught that, and that it’s black and white.

Susan Crockett: So how did you go from rehab to learning about this through the coaching tools instead?

Penny Gamble: Okay. So after rehab I went back to drinking. I did have some skills to manage it. I just did the best I could to not over-drink and not get to the point where I was really sick. And so I was still functioning but at a much lower level. And so, I did that for a few more years and then I saw an ad on Facebook about stop over-drinking.

Susan Crockett: And you went click.

Penny Gamble: I absolutely clicked on it. And you know what; I was up in the middle of the night scrolling because I couldn’t sleep, because I over-drank and it interrupts your sleep patterns and gives you anxiety. And so I just was open to anything, anything other than just using willpower. I just didn’t want to quit. I was like, I really, you know, a lot of people are like – there was a time when this wasn’t a problem and I could drink normally.

Susan Crockett: And you just wanted to get back to that?

Penny Gamble: Exactly. And I was open to quitting altogether but let’s take it one step at a time, right?

Susan Crockett: Yeah. So, you went through the stop over-drinking problem with The Life Coach School?

Penny Gamble: I did.

Susan Crockett: And it worked?

Penny Gamble: It worked. It worked.

Susan Crockett: That’s amazing.

Penny Gamble: I worked at it for – you know what, it started working from the beginning, I mean because anything that I was doing and all along I was drinking less. But I’m to the point now where going from drinking every night, now I just drink maybe once a week.

Susan Crockett: It’s really fascinating. Wow.

Penny Gamble: And I don’t think about alcohol all the time.

Susan Crockett: That’s the key thing, right?

Penny Gamble: That’s all I thought about. I mean especially when you say, “Well, I’m going to stop and I should stop thinking about this.” And then your brain just – you focus on it even more.

Susan Crockett: It just keeps going.

Penny Gamble: Yeah.

Susan Crockett: So I love this idea that you have diminished the desire, because that goes against also what we’re taught in medical school, we’re taught socially. So I’m super interested in hearing about how that’s worked for you. I think you’re the first person that I’ve talked to that has had this specific experience and been through this level of here’s where I was and here where I am. And I think it’s really inspiring that that’s what you do now is teach other women how to decrease their desire and manage overdrinking and their urges, so cool, what a story.

Penny Gamble: Absolutely. So shall we talk first about exactly what an urge is?

Susan Crockett: Yeah. Yeah, let’s clarify it. I bet people are going, “Urge.” Yeah, tell me what.

Penny Gamble: Okay. So really an urge is just, it’s a vibration in your body, it’s a feeling. And you could classify the feeling as a couple of different things. But it basically is desire or over-desire. And so, when you think of the word ‘urge,’ it’s a shortened version of urgency.

Susan Crockett: Yeah, of course.

Penny Gamble: And so it’s like this urgency you have, your brain – our brains are just wired so that when we get that reward from the alcohol, that that is very important. And even though in today’s society it isn’t, our brain doesn’t know the difference. And your brain…

Susan Crockett: Our brain just thinks that’s a dopamine hit, I love this. I have to have it.

Penny Gamble: It’s just as important as food, it doesn’t know the difference. And in fact the dopamine is so much higher from alcohol than from food in a lot of cases, that the desire is just – to me, that’s just that much more urgent, it’s seeking that out. And so an urge is just over-desire, and a natural thing that our brain creates. And it just thinks it’s important, our lower brain thinks it’s important.

Susan Crockett: So I’m kind of curious because the title of our talk today is about how to allow an urge. Why, if the urgency is so uncomfortable would I ever want to allow it? Talk with me about that.

Penny Gamble: Well, let’s talk about that because actually there’s something worse than allowing it, that people just don’t realize.

Susan Crockett: Tell me.

Penny Gamble: It’s actually you get a stronger sensation from resisting it. So I want to back up just right – because we are going to talk about that. But there are four things that you can do in response to an urge.

Susan Crockett: Okay, tell me, four things.

Penny Gamble: Four things really quickly. So we either resist it, we react to it. So resisting would be pushing against it and white knuckling it.

Susan Crockett: Okay, I like that term, that describes it really well, the white knuckling, I’m just going to willpower through this.

Penny Gamble: And then reacting to it would be to drink to it, okay, we all know how that goes. And then avoiding it might be like distracting yourself, like well, I’ll just be busy and do something else. And that works for a time but you’re really not dealing with the underlying issues.

Susan Crockett: You’re not addressing the urge, so that doesn’t do anything to decrease the desire?

Penny Gamble: No, it doesn’t.

Susan Crockett: Okay, so four things, you can allow, which is what we’re going to talk about today. Resist. Respond, is that what it was?

Penny Gamble: React or respond.

Susan Crockett: React and then avoid, okay, got it.

Penny Gamble: So when you were saying, “Well, it sounds so horrible to have to allow this urge, why would I want to allow it?” Resisting it or using willpower and white knuckling it actually intensifies the feeling.

Susan Crockett: Interesting.

Penny Gamble: And it also makes it – it reinforces the habit that much more because I know, it’s just like I love learning about this and sharing this with people. Because when we resist something and then we eventually give in to it then your brain learns that, really instantly your lower brain is on to that. And your brain is wired to just…

Susan Crockett: It’s like the Pavlov Reward Center, the dog thing where they ring a bell and they celebrate for the food, it’s that. You’re training your brain to respond to the trigger.

Penny Gamble: Yeah. And then your brain just learns all of the different thoughts that get you to drink, that eventually you give in to.

Susan Crockett: It sounds horrible.

Penny Gamble: Well, actually our brains are brilliant. It wants to be efficient. And using the higher part of your brain takes a lot of energy. And relegating those thoughts that come easy and that get the reward, it will relegate to the lower brain.

Susan Crockett: The subconscious just wired like you don’t have to think about it?

Penny Gamble: You don’t even have to think about it.

Susan Crockett: Like driving to work, it’s just in there and your brain’s going to do it on auto-pilot?

Penny Gamble: Right. And you don’t even – you’re like, “I didn’t even, it wasn’t even - how did I even get here to work, or how did I get home?” You weren’t really thinking about it.

Susan Crockett: How did I get here to drinking a whole bottle of wine?

Penny Gamble: Exactly, yeah.

Susan Crockett: It’s the same thing, really?

Penny Gamble: It is. It’s the same thing.

Susan Crockett: And the fact that you can rewire that is amazing, that’s really – that’s encouraging.

Penny Gamble: It is so encouraging. When I learned this, it just was one sentence, that if you can, just like you have created over-desire, so you’ve conditioned it, you can de-condition it. And that, that part you can de-condition it was just like, Sue, when I heard this, a weight came off my shoulders. And I just said to myself, “I am going to do this until I figure it out, because this makes sense.”

Susan Crockett: And then you did it, and now you’re an example for everybody of what’s possible.

Penny Gamble: Exactly. Yes.

Susan Crockett: It’s really cool.

Penny Gamble: It’s been transformational. So yeah, so those are the four things that we do. And then we can talk about how are you going to allow that, and it’s not going to be as terrible as resisting it.

Susan Crockett: Yeah, I’m really curious about this because I’ve been in life coaching, and I think we’ve had a couple of people on the show where we’ve talked a little bit about allowing urges for different things, overeating and stuff. But everybody describes it a little bit differently, and like you said at the beginning, this is one of those things that I can’t hear enough because I’m still practicing, and I’m still learning, and I’m still working on it, right?

Penny Gamble: Exactly.

Susan Crockett: So tell me your version of how have you done it so that it works for you?

Penny Gamble: And I love what you said about using – this is good for whether you’re allowing an urge for food, I mean it’s the same principle, whether it’s for food, for smoking, to stop smoking, to stop biting your nails, to shopping, whatever that…

Susan Crockett: Sex, drugs and alcohol.

Penny Gamble: All of it.

Susan Crockett: All of it.

Penny Gamble: Yeah, it works the same in the brain. So for those listeners that are working on whatever their thing is, everyone has their thing. Okay, so the first step is commitment. And I put this first, not everyone does but this is so key, because for me, if I wasn’t committed to allowing the urge, I ended up resisting. And I wasn’t willing, I let the voices, the competing sentences in my brain, I entertained those thoughts of, well, is it really that important? Just one won’t hurt, maybe tomorrow.

It’s a negotiation, the negotiation in your head. So if you can just quiet that negotiation upfront then you can get to allowing what’s really underneath that.

Susan Crockett: Okay, so the commitment is to pay less attention to those thoughts or what, what’s the commitment?

Penny Gamble: It’s a commitment to feeling the feeling that you’re avoiding actually. So a lot of times there’s even actually another feeling other than just the urge for alcohol, there is maybe it’s just the feeling of willing to be restless, or you’re bored, or you’re distressed and you’ve had a difficult day.

Susan Crockett: So it’s a commitment to feeling the negative feelings that we all feel?

Penny Gamble: Correct.

Susan Crockett: Interesting.

Penny Gamble: And knowing that the promise is that once you master this, and it will only take five to ten minutes, and the urge will be gone.

Susan Crockett: That’s all you have to get through is five or ten minutes, five minutes and then the energy, that urge, or that anxiety, or that whatever you’re feeling will dissipate if you allow it?

Penny Gamble: If you allow it.

Susan Crockett: That’s so much shorter than resisting, resisting goes on for days, right?

Penny Gamble: It does, yeah, I would wake up, I remember waking up the next day after white knuckling a whole night and thinking I’m drinking tonight because that sucked.

Susan Crockett: That was terrible, yeah.

Penny Gamble: I was thinking about it in the morning, and I’ve heard people say, “Oh, well, if you kind of just get through that evening, the next day you’re always glad you didn’t drink.”

Susan Crockett: And that’s not always true.

Penny Gamble: It’s not, that was a lie for me.

Susan Crockett: Interesting. You know what; I’ve never really had somebody articulate that before. But I think a lot of people feel that way, yeah.

Penny Gamble: And I think it goes back to that, like you had that restlessness, you had that discomfort, and it hasn’t gone away, you haven’t processed anything at all and you wake up with it.

Susan Crockett: And it’s still there. So tell us how to process it, tell us what that looked like for you.

Penny Gamble: So after you’ve committed to the feeling that you’re going to feel, then you’re going to become the watcher.

Susan Crockett: Yeah, I like this technique.

Penny Gamble: And what you want to do in becoming the watcher is realize that you are not the urge and the urge is not you, it’s just a feeling, it’s a vibration in your body.

Susan Crockett: And we are separate from it?

Penny Gamble: You’re separate from it. So when you become the watcher you go into your higher brain and then you actually also go into your body. So you kind of actually get out of your head, but you’re using your higher brain and not your lower brain to do this.

Susan Crockett: Which you get out of the running thought dialogue, the narrative that’s going on, you can step back and watch it like a movie happening and be like, okay, I’m in my body, I’m not in my thoughts?

Penny Gamble: Correct. So it does quiet down that chatter and will actually then go away. As you drop below your chin and get into your body and notice what you’re feeling, you don’t have to know what the feeling is, but you can describe it. Where are you tight?

Susan Crockett: You get really specific in the body parts?

Penny Gamble: Where are you feeling it? What does it feel like? Is it fast or slow? Is it moving? Does it have a color? Does it have a shape?

Susan Crockett: Interesting.

Penny Gamble: And as you go through each of those things, to watch it and then notice if it’s changing. It’s almost like a meditation because you might notice that then you start thinking again. And then when you catch yourself thinking about mind chatter and drinking, then just refocus yourself; bring yourself back into your body, focus. And then one way to do it with meditation of course is to focus on your breath. So you could focus on taking some deep breaths.

Susan Crockett: I always like that, that’s really [inaudible].

Penny Gamble: Brings you back into your body and then ask yourself again, “Okay, well, where is it now? What is it doing?” And be willing to just follow it and sit with it and open. And that really is an opening up to it.

Susan Crockett: Cool.

Penny Gamble: And then one other thing I would like to say is, and this is a great visual is I like to picture that urge wrapped in a bubble, so it’s in me but it isn’t, I feel protected from it.

Susan Crockett: It’s not throughout you. You’ve got a boundary around it?

Penny Gamble: You have a boundary around it, wrap it in a bubble and hold it in a place of peace.

Susan Crockett: Oh wow, this does not sound very peaceful, so yeah, all this chatter and negative emotions and stuff. Okay, that’s cool; I’ve never heard that before, so wrap it in a bubble and then hold it in a place of peace, yeah.

Penny Gamble: And if it doesn’t, if that sounds – your reaction to that was really interesting because that’s resistance, that’s resistance coming up to it. How could that be peaceful?

Susan Crockett: Yeah.

Penny Gamble: And so any time that we’re resisting something, it makes it that much stronger and the vibration, I think, changes and gets maybe quicker and is unsettling, and it adds. So, any time we resist an emotion we add suffering to our [inaudible].

Susan Crockett: Wait, wait, say that again, that’s tweetable right there, that’s a tweet.

Penny Gamble: This one’s key, we are all humans and we all feel all of the array of emotions, and when you resist the negative emotion that is suffering, so you’re adding suffering to your pain. So if you think of it as pain, negative emotion is pain, resistance adds suffering to your pain.

Susan Crockett: Golly, this is so powerful.

Penny Gamble: And so if you can, if you do wrap it in that bubble and hold it in a place of peace then you’re not – that just helps, like it’s such a visual for not resisting.

Susan Crockett: You know what; I bet this could actually help people with chronic pain too.

Penny Gamble: Absolutely.

Susan Crockett: I hadn’t thought of that, the idea about urges being related at all to the perception of pain within the body, but this idea of being able to put a boundary around it, and hold it in a place of peace and to decrease the resistance and the suffering that may be compounding it. That’s kind of mind blowing right there, that’s really cool, that may be something that I bring forward into my practice, so thank you.

Penny Gamble: Great. You’re welcome, yeah.

Susan Crockett: Cool, okay, so if you had to give us a bottom line or a takeaway for our audience, first of all, thank you, this has been really a lot of information and really great conversation with you today, some really great tools that I hadn’t heard of or thought of before. And I know it’s going to help a lot of our listeners. What would you say is the sum, what would you leave them with?

Penny Gamble: Okay. This is key, because this is the other part to it, this is the other side to it is to give yourself grace during this process.

Susan Crockett: Grace.

Penny Gamble: Allow grace, you deserve it.

Susan Crockett: Oh man, because so many of us don’t feel like that, and that being kind, that grace, that compassion. That’s such a powerful word.

Penny Gamble: Self-compassion. And that, what that looks like is, is not judging yourself. And that can be something – that’s something I’ve evolved with and worked on myself because the next day, let’s say you did end up drinking, because maybe you didn’t allow the urge properly, because you’re figuring this out at first. And so when you judge yourself you’re not being curious and looking at what went wrong. You’re just – or what can I do differently? You’re just being hard on yourself.

Susan Crockett: Beating yourself up.

Penny Gamble: Yeah. So I gave myself permission to just – I remind myself the next day, if I drank and I didn’t want to or I drank too much, I just tell myself, that’s a circumstance, it’s neutral, it isn’t something that I need to beat myself up over. And I just give myself that grace, that how can I learn from this?

Susan Crockett: Oh wow, so powerful, that’s so strong. Alright, well, Penny, thank you for being here today.

Penny Gamble: You are welcome. This is just such a big topic for me, because I was just miserable.

Susan Crockett: I can see your vulnerability. I mean this is very courageous, it’s a very brave thing that you’ve done in showing your heart and what you’ve been through. And I know that that hasn’t been easy, but it’s so valuable to the people listening. And I just want to thank you so much for being willing to share yourself with others to give them the encouragement they need to hear about grace and allowing, and falling forward in this.

Penny Gamble: Absolutely, yes, falling forward, and you’re not alone, you’re human and yeah, other women are struggling too. And it’s okay, you’re normal, you’re brain is healthy.

Susan Crockett: It’s doing what it’s supposed to, it’s okay. So our listeners know that they can find you through virtuosacoaching.com because you’re one of my amazing coaches. But do you have any other ways that they can reach out to you or hear more about your information?

Penny Gamble: Yes, absolutely, the best way to find me is on Facebook, I have a coaching page, a business page Penny Gamble Coaching.

Susan Crockett: Awesome.

Penny Gamble: And that’s it, super simple.

Susan Crockett: We’ll make sure we put that in the notes and yeah, thank you so much for joining us today. Have a wonderful weekend.

Penny Gamble: Great, thank you. Thank you, Sue.

Susan Crockett: You’re welcome.

Alright, so what I’ve shown you today, I’ve shown you options, there are different ways for us to think about. There is a way for you to learn a skill set of identifying and allowing urges and a way to decondition that subconscious brain of ours that just kind of goes on auto-pilot. And if this sounds like a good thing for you then I’d encourage you. I’d encourage you to try it and practice it, reach out to Penny, see if she can encourage you and help you on your journey.

And above all, we’ve talked about giving yourself grace. Give yourself grace and compassion, change takes time and it’s the rare person that does it overnight. This whole podcast is about transforming into the best version of yourself, into the virtuosa version of yourself and that is something that we are continually evolving, so give yourself grace and patience.

Right, now my favorite part of the show is what we’re listening to and reading. And Penny brought some really great things for you all this week. She is listening to Michael Franti, the Sound of Sunshine. And you know what, I love this artist, and I had actually heard this song before but really hadn’t explored the rest of his catalog. I love his tone and his – just his energy, his light. And so I would encourage you to check him out. We’ll put some links for you in the notes for the podcast.

She’s reading Meeting in Captivity by Esther Perel, that’s P.e.r.e.l. Esther Perel, fascinating book.

And The Last Dance is what she’s watching. It’s of course the Michael Jordan documentary. So hopefully that gives you some ideas about things to listen to and read this week.

Next week I am doing another coaching interview with Ludmila Woodruff. She is going to be teaching about emotional, mental and physical fitness in motherhood, or in other words, how not to go grab a glass of wine when you want to kill your kids in Covid captivity. She’s hilarious; she’s actually a standup comedienne too. She had me laughing so hard, you all. I have not laughed that hard in a long time. So you’re definitely going to want to tune in next week.

And thanks for listening this week. Have a wonderful week my virtuosas. Love always, Sue. And I will see you next week in episode number 30. Bye you all.

Female Announcer: Thanks for listening to this episode of Becoming Virtuosa. If you want to find out more, come check out virtuosacoaching.com. That’s virtuosa - with an A - coaching.com. See you next week.

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