Episode #20:

Living with Complexity with Margot Hanley

I have a super interesting guest joining me this week! This week we’ll be talking about learning to live and be comfortable with complexity in our lives, and what better educator than Margot Hanley. Following a career as a respiratory therapist, Margot used her experience of working with families in crisis to pivot her career and become a certified Life Coach. She now supports family members of people who change their sexual and gender identities to integrate change into their lives.

When her sibling came out in their late 50’s as transgender, Margot realized that people need more support in dealing with the complexity surrounding such transitions. Through educating herself, Margot learned how to manage her thoughts and emotions and now teaches people the necessary skills to embrace the change and simplify complexity in their lives.

Join us this week where we’ll discuss how our thoughts are our choice, and we can learn to choose to think and believe differently. We’ll learn why it’s important to face up to and process our emotions, and how embracing change instead of bracing against it will enable you to create the life you want going forward!

WHAT YOU’LL DISCOVER

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Why our brains are designed to protect us from change.

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How to show compassion to somebody who you perceive as different from you.

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Why your thoughts come from past experiences and programming.

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How to work through complexity.

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Why labels and categories can be unnecessary.

FEATURED ON THE SHOW

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Check out more episodes of the podcast here!

TRANSCRIPT

Susan Crockett: Welcome to Becoming Virtuosa, the podcast, with Dr. Susan Crockett. You are listening to episode number 20: Living with Complexity, an interview with fellow certified life coach, Margot Hanley. This episode is dedicated to all my LGBTQ patients, friends and family. I love you all.

Female Announcer: Welcome to Becoming Virtuosa, where women learn to love their lives. Do you find yourself frustrated by society’s expectations? Looking for practical advice on how to discover your talents and level up your life? You’ve found the right place. Here’s your host, US News top doctor, robotic surgeon and certified life coach, Dr. Susan Crockett.

Susan Crockett: Well, hello, hello. Hello, my virtuosas, and my virtuosas in training. It is a beautiful warm, hot day in Texas. And I am coming to you to talk with you about a really cool topic today. It’s about being comfortable, or learning to live with complexity in life. I am your host, Dr. Susan Crockett, I am a physician but we are not practicing medicine today, so you can call me Sue.

We are having girl talk today with my friend Margot Hanley who is one of my coaches from Virtuosa Coaching. And before we get started I wanted to share with you all a story that happened with me this week, actually last night, yesterday afternoon. My house got broken into, it’s so strange, it’s not my main house and this may sound a little bit snooty.

But if any of you all were following me during April of 2020 when the COVID outbreak was happening, I did a live Facebook series for the whole month of April, I did daily live Facebook videos, and they were called Coffee with Crockett, if you want to watch them you can go to Facebook and hit hashtag Coffee with Crockett, they’re all still sitting there most likely, probably. While I was doing that there were a couple of times that I videoed or did the broadcast from what I lovingly refer to as my crappy little lake house.

So I am aware – I’m very aware that not everybody has a house, much less, a crappy little lake house, it is actually a really cute, very old little cottage and it sits on a very high cliff overlooking a lake, so the view is fantastic. But this little house is like 700 square feet, like not very much. And it’s kind of my she-shed, I go out there when I need a place for peace, where I need to reflect, there’s no TV or internet out there. When I did the broadcast I hit my phone with the cellular to be able to broadcast from there.

So it’s a place where you can kind of unhook and unwind. And this week my daughter went out there to just check on something midweek, and she’s like, “Mom, I think somebody’s been in the house.” The door on the side of it was unlocked, she’s like, “You don’t do that.” And I was like, “Oh no, oh no.” So I went out there yesterday afternoon and sure enough it was broken into and there’s not a lot to steal from it because it is pretty quaint. But there is a speaker, my wireless speaker that they took.

There was a space heater that they took, they took three blankets, there was a blanket on the bed, they actually took the blanket out from under the quilt that my mom had handmade for us, which is precious to me, and didn’t touch the quilt. They didn’t ransack the place, they took a couple of little canisters and left their trash around and there was like McDonald’s trash in the trashcan. And they ate all the food and drinks that were there, which was only like water and White Claws and I think a couple of beers my husband had there.

But it was just so strange; they had very carefully slit the screen to lift the hook up so they could get in. They stole keys off of a key ring, they left the cork key ring but stole the keys off of it. And they didn’t use the keys for where they went, it was like they were trying to get back into the house.

So there was this really strange feeling that I had. This feeling of being violated and that somebody had been in my house and I didn’t know who it was. I’m pretty sure it was a younger female just by some of the clues they left. And they didn’t ransack it, they didn’t loot this, this wasn’t somebody in violent protest. It wasn’t my property harmed even; it was just like somebody really needed to be warm, I mean to take the space heater and the blankets. I can understand pawning the speaker.

So as I processed my emotions through this I had all of these conflicting emotions, maybe this was somebody who really needed a place to lay their head or needed the blanket. They stole the towels too. Maybe they didn’t have those things and they needed them.

And so sitting here today in this complexity of emotion which is exactly what we’re going to be talking about in our interview today with Margot. I’m handling and holding within myself the compassion for this person who obviously was in need. And gratitude for them not vandalizing my house or taking the quilt which was heirloom, precious to me. And then just this horrible feeling about feeling violated. And I think, well, I should be counting my blessings that I have things that people want to take, because lots of people are suffering right now and don’t have things.

So I am processing through all of this complexity and I thought, well, I’m going to bring this into the broadcast today, into the podcast. So the topic today is about learning to live with complexity. I’ve given you an example of one just from my personal life, from an incident that happened.

I was watching a movie with my husband this morning, we were just having coffee and breakfast and we were watching this movie that Harrison Ford and Anne Heche were in and it was from about 20 years ago. And we were talking about, we noticed how simple the movies were, kind of kitschy and funny and they were good, and the acting was good, but the storyline was very straightforward, very predictable characters, very simple.

And we were contrasting it to today’s movies and the complexity that’s expected, the complexity that the current generation expects from not only plot and theme but characters, characters are not just good or bad anymore. They’re very layered and complex, even in the TV shows that we see, like cop shows and stuff, it’s not just good cop, bad cop run it through anymore on a lot of these shows. They’re really experimenting and pushing the envelope with dealing with complex characters.

So I find this all very fascinating, our brains want to fit everything into categories, and it’s how we understand and make sense of life. And what I’ve noticed is the younger generation, my kids, they are way more comfortable with not having things fit into boxes or categories, they are much better at handling complexity. And I’m wondering if that’s an evolution that we’re watching, and I’m fascinated by it.

So in medicine, there’s a great example of this in medicine, there is this thing called Occam’s razor, and in the medical profession that means, Occam’s razor suggests that the simplest explanation is the most likely. And what it implies is that diagnosticians or doctors when we’re trying to figure out what is wrong with a patient, that we should assume a single cause for multiple symptoms. So when we’re taught how to make a diagnosis, we take the patient’s story, take all their symptoms and we try to make sense of them and then put them into a diagnosis that makes sense.

But the problem with Occam’s razor is refuted by Hickham’s dictum, is a counterargument. And Hickham’s dictum says that a person can have as many diseases as he damn well pleases, or she damn well pleases. So this is what I deal with a whole lot more commonly in my office. And I think especially when we start talking about our brains and managing emotions and thoughts, and brains, that Hickham’s dictum is way more on target than Occam’s razor.

I think that most of the time we are dealing with multiple threads of things, it’s like having two chain necklaces all tangled up within each other, or maybe more than two, and just trying to get through the knots and picking out the layers of complexity one by one. So today we’re going to talk about this. We’re going to talk about living with complexity, becoming comfortable in our lives, sitting with complexity and managing our brains around it, as it specifically applies to family relationships.

We’re using family relationships with LGBTQ people as our topic for today, not only because that’s a very common thing that I see people working on in their lives. But also because this is something that really emphasizes the skills that we can use to work with people who don’t fit into boxes. And, Margot is an expert on that, Margot Hanley who’s the coach that we’re interviewing today used to be a respiratory therapist and now she lives in France. So we actually did this interview across the ocean, it was fabulous.

As you think about this topic, this may not be something that you really want to think about in your own personal life. But I think what you’ll find is that the tools that she teaches about managing complexity really are very easily extrapolated to our thoughts about religion, and gender, and race, and politics, jobs, all the labels that we have for people.

And so we’re going to give you three tools, Margot’s going to give you three tools for managing our brains and emotions around these complexities. And we’re going to teach you about bringing those forward into your own life when you’re dealing with complex issues.

Good morning, Margot, how are you?

Margot Hanley: I’m good, Sue, how are you?

Susan Crockett: I’m just great. It’s great to have you on the show. I’m so happy to be able to talk with you about such an important topic. I know it’s important because I see how many of my patients and my friends that it comes up for. So I really am grateful for the work that you’ve done. I understand you used to be a respiratory therapist before you became a life coach.

Margot Hanley: Yes, I had a long period as a respiratory therapist. And I actually became manager of the department, it was about a 30 year career, I guess. Respiratory therapy is a really fascinating profession because you get to work in a lot of emergency situations and traumas at end of life, because we run all the life support machines and stuff. So I was dealing with a lot of families there and helping them through a different type of a transition, but always working with a lot of families in crisis, so.

Susan Crockett: So how did you go from that to becoming a certified life coach and helping families with gender issues?

Margot Hanley: Well, I moved to France, moved for love. I met a man and moved to France.

Susan Crockett: That’s brave. That’s awesome.

Margot Hanley: So it was a big change, I guess I was ready for that change. And when I arrived in France, there is actually no respiratory therapy in Europe.

Susan Crockett: Wow, that’s stunning.

Margot Hanley: Yeah. And so I didn’t work for a while, I was learning the language and keeping busy other ways, I wasn’t working. And then after a few years I really started to worry about what I was going to do with my professional career. And it was causing me anxiety; I was waking up in the morning feeling anxious about it.

And this is when I found Brooke Castillo, and The Life Coach School Podcast. And all of her teachings about how our thoughts cause our emotions, and I started listening to her work and after the first, I think, four podcasts, I had no more anxiety, it was very powerful.

Susan Crockett: That’s amazing.

Margot Hanley: Yeah.

Susan Crockett: So then you decided you were going to teach other people how to do that?

Margot Hanley: Exactly. I thought I need to share this with more people.

Susan Crockett: That’s so cool. So a lot of people deal with anxiety, that’s a really common – I think a common thing that we, as life coaches, help people handle on all kinds of levels. How did you come to work with the LGBTQ community and their families?

Margot Hanley: Yeah, so I was actually searching for who I was going to be working with through life coaching. And I’m the youngest of seven children, a big family. And my sibling who’s just older than me, just three years older than me, they came out in their late 50s as transgender, yeah. They were married with two kids at the time, and yeah, so he was assigned male at birth, and then she lived her whole life as a male, and was married, had kids and then by around the age of about 57, she just couldn’t continue with that anymore, so she came out to all of us.

And we’re actually very fortunate, the family, because everyone’s accepting and loving and she even has the full support of her ex wife and her two kids, so we were very blessed.

Susan Crockett: That’s an amazing story, you’ve been through this transition of, oh gosh, things aren’t the way I thought they were going to be. And then working through to the point of loving and cohesiveness and happy relationships within your families, what a great example that is. What a great person to help others and teach others with this, that’s really cool.

Margot Hanley: Yes. And I started to dive into the whole subject and became a member of my new Facebook groups and support groups. I really realized how family members and parents of gender changing people really need the support; it’s very much a struggle, yeah.

Susan Crockett: Yeah. So the work that you do is it mostly with gender transition or gender changing, or is it also with the lesbian, gay, bisexual, all of that too?

Margot Hanley: Yeah, I’ve actually had parents from all the LGBTQ community come to me for help. So I work with people with changing sexual identities and gender identities and, yeah, all of that.

Susan Crockett: All of it. So what is it like when they first come to you for coaching, what does that look like and how do you approach helping them?

Margot Hanley: Well, one of the first steps that I usually take with most parents is that showing them that one of the person’s that really can help them in acceptance and moving forward and finding their footing in this new change is to educate themselves.

Susan Crockett: I bet you have some really good resources for that.

Margot Hanley: Yes. And so what happens is, because it’s such an emotional challenging change for a lot of parents that they tend to just be grasping out for different support groups and different people for information. But really educating themselves with books and some good websites, like one of my favorites is The Gender Spectrum.

Susan Crockett: Gender Spectrum, okay.

Margot Hanley: Yeah, it’s a really good website.

Susan Crockett: We’ll make sure we put that in our footnotes for the podcast, so people can find that. Tell me a little bit about that.

Margot Hanley: It’s a website with a great depth, and they have support groups for gender changing children and also for parents, and for professionals. They also have…

Susan Crockett: Wow.

Margot Hanley: Yeah, they also have lots of resources for, as far as books to read and resources to help you when you’re dealing with your schools and how to have those meetings with the administration, how to deal with family members, how to inform people. And it’s working with religion and it’s just, it’s a really well developed site with a lot of really good resources.
Susan Crockett: Cool.

Margot Hanley: It’s one of my favorites, yeah.

Susan Crockett: So the families that are coming to you are already looking for ways to integrate the reality of their kids’ choices into life. They’re already accepting that their kids are the way they are. They’re not coming in to you to try to change that circumstance. They’re already aware that the circumstance is what it is, and they’re trying to figure out how to navigate that relationship, is that right?

Margot Hanley: Yeah, pretty much they’re all accepting of the change. I don’t have any parents who are refusing their children’s new identity.

Susan Crockett: Yeah, because they wouldn’t come looking for you, they’re specifically coming because to you to help with the integration part, okay. Cool, alright.

Margot Hanley: Yeah, so I start with making sure that they have some good educational resources and that they – because that helps to really demystify a lot of things for them. And that helps them to have a good base.

Susan Crockett: That’s awesome. What are some of the common thoughts that they come in with? And how do you help them integrate into a thriving relationship with their child?

Margot Hanley: Well, I hear a lot like parents will come in and will think that I’m never going to be able to fully accept this and they positively…

Susan Crockett: That’s so hard.

Margot Hanley: Right. And they think that they’re being a bad parent, they’ll tell me things that they’ve done or said and thinking does that make - thinking and feeling this way, does this make me a bad parent? And so they’re judging themselves and they may be members of different Facebook groups and they’ll see other parents who are posting positively. And they’ll think, oh my gosh, am I ever going to get there? I can’t do this.

So yeah, basically I’m teaching them a lot about the human brain, about how there’s nothing wrong with them, it’s just the fact that they have a human brain. And how we can actually manage our thoughts and our thinking, and that also helps us to manage our emotions. And that everything that the brain is producing for us is not actual. It’s just thinking, it’s the thoughts that come a lot from our programming and from our past, and so…

Susan Crockett: So you’re not telling them how they should be or what they should think. It sounds like you’re just revealing to them their thoughts and helping them see their brain and how it’s working and giving them that power, is that right?

Margot Hanley: Right, right.

Susan Crockett: So tell me a little bit about how you work with them with their brain and show them their brain, what is that like?

Margot Hanley: Okay. Well, parents sometimes get really stuck in the ways that they are thinking and believing. And so we’re never taught that we can actually, that all of our thoughts are actually choice and we can choose to think and believe differently.

Susan Crockett: I know, I didn’t learn that until I went through the Life Coach School just three years ago. We aren’t taught in our society to really understand how to look at our brain and how to manage it and how to think. So you’re getting right at the basics of life coaching.

Margot Hanley: Yeah. And those parents that feel stuck and feel like they’re never going to get there, can I really do this, can I fully accept this and move forward positively? This really, this is really the crux of the work is showing them that the human brain was designed to repeat the same patterns and to protect us from change, anything that could be construed as danger to us, making the brain resistant.

Susan Crockett: Yeah, danger brain.

Margot Hanley: Right, they resist that. And so it’s going to keep bringing up your same thoughts, to keep you doing the same things, to keep you comfortable and safe. And so when a big change like this comes into your life, your brain is going to be creating thoughts that fight against that, to fight against accepting it.

So there’s nothing wrong with you as a parent or as a person when you struggle to accept a change and to really get behind it, it’s just that you need to learn how to manage your mind, manage your thoughts and how to move forward, and how to create that change in your life. And everybody can do it.

Susan Crockett: And it’s so cool that you do that for these families. Talk with me a little bit about the complexity of the gender spectrum, because that’s one of the things that I find really interesting. We, in our – I don’t even want to say that, our generation, but there are a lot of people in our country, and in our world who think in terms of black and white. And we were brought up thinking that there are only two choices, and everybody falls into one or the other with rare exceptions.

But now our kids’ generation, the millennial generation, they’re dealing with sexuality on a totally different playing field. Can you talk with me a little bit about that?

Margot Hanley: Yeah, both in sexuality and gender, there’s a broader spectrum than what we were raised with. And the human brain, it does like to connect with either black or white, it wants things concrete, it wants things clear, and it feels secure in that. And so when we look at our children or the younger generations, and they are expressing different sexuality, there’s pansexuality, there’s people who are asexual, pansexual, bisexual, a lot of different sexualities.

And the same with gender, there’s a lot of gender fluidities, you can be gender fluid, you can be transgender, you can be bigender, and there’s even more labels, and more names, and more identities than what I’ve mentioned. And so for many of us, that’s a big challenge for our brains to wrap around, and one of the skills that we can develop is being able to realize that our sense of comfort and our sense of security comes from within, it doesn’t come from external. So we don’t have to look outside of us for a sense of certainty.

Susan Crockett: We don’t have to have everything in the right boxes to feel comfort?

Margot Hanley: Right. And so what happens when some people are transitioning from, and looking for their true, let’s say, gender identity, I have one client who actually came to me with this problem. She said, “My child came to me and said that they were a boy, they want to be a boy now. We went through a name change, we changed pronouns. We went shopping, got all the clothes and the binders and did all this. And now it’s seven months later and I came downstairs and he had painted his toenails and was wearing make-up.”

And so the parent was like, “Are they sure, does this mean they don’t know? Maybe this wasn’t the right choice and they start questioning everything all over again.”

Susan Crockett: And my kid was perfectly fine and thought nothing weird about it because they don’t see the boxes, they’re just being themselves.

Margot Hanley: Yeah. And they’re just going through their journey and kind of exploring and trying to find their new gender identity and exactly what it means for them. And now actually people are expressing gender differently, there’s so many different ways to express it. And so yeah, that can be a real challenge for a lot of parents.

Susan Crockett: And helping them learn to handle complexity is a really – that’s the second really important skill that you teach them?

Margot Hanley: Yes, right, which then they can take that skill into all areas of life because whenever there’s uncertainty we struggle. And so like, through many things, even the COVID-19, things were pretty uncertain. So when we develop the skill and you realize that that strength and stability comes from within you, you can apply to every area of your life.

Susan Crockett: That’s so cool. Our listeners will love that, that’s really awesome. Alright, talk to me a little bit about game face and the stiff upper lip, the people that come to you that are like, “I’m just going to grin and bear it through it, I’m going to smile and I want to be supportive of my kid so I’m going to just like grit it out.” Talk to me about that and what do you do to help them?

Margot Hanley: Okay. Yeah, so oftentimes the parents are feeling like they are supportive of their kid, they’re not ashamed of their child, they’re supportive. They love that their child can express themselves as they wish now in their lives. But they still have an inner struggle within themselves over many issues, about accepting the change and moving forward. And sometimes it’s letting go of dreams they have for their child going forward, the wedding they pictured, they imagine – they don’t know what to imagine anymore, so they struggle with letting go of all that.

And so what many of them do though is when they don’t know how to manage their minds and their emotions, they just tend to suppress it and they just want to put on a game face. I’m going to show up for my child, I’m going to be positive, I’m going to hide my fears, I’m going to hide my worries, I’m just going to carry on. And it’s fascinating because we as humans have a really strong ability to detect that in other people, we can know when people are faking around us, whether it’s things they’re not doing or saying, or little subtleties that change when somebody is kind of holding their emotions in.

Susan Crockett: Yeah. We have pretty good BS detectors.

Margot Hanley: Right. Or sometimes parents will have this unexpected emotional outburst at a time when they can’t control it, just because they’ve been suppressing it for so long.

Susan Crockett: Yeah, I can see that.

Margot Hanley: Yeah, so we do a lot of work together about how to process an emotion and how to be with it and allow it to process through so that it can then – you can learn from it, realize what’s causing it, let it process through. And that resistance, because when you resist emotions they just become stronger, and when you can let them process through, a lot of times we can learn from them, grow from them and move forward.

Susan Crockett: I think this is a skill that a lot of us need in our culture these days, this ability to process. Again, we’re not taught this growing up, right?

Margot Hanley: Right, exactly, yeah. We have no idea what causes an emotion, how to feel them. And the fact that we can feel them, we have so much fear around emotions, we don’t want to feel sad, we don’t want to feel grief. So we tend to just shove them down and try not to feel it.

Susan Crockett: And yet they’re still all part of the human experience. So this was so cool, so just to kind of summarize, you started with, you help get the families to get education and then there are three different skills you help them with. One is to look at their brain and manage their thinking.  And the second is learning to handle complexity and be comfortable with that. And then the third is processing emotions.

Margot Hanley: Yeah, when they learn to process the emotions and not resist them, it’s like they know how to embrace the change instead of bracing against it.

Susan Crockett: That’s a great way, say that again. Say that again, that was so good.

Margot Hanley: They learn how to embrace the change.

Susan Crockett: Instead of bracing.

Margot Hanley: Bracing against it.

Susan Crockett: That might be our Instagram quote from this podcast, that’s really awesome. Cool. So just to sum it up, what is the take home that you want our listeners to take home from this, what’s the most important nugget here?

Margot Hanley: Oh boy, that’s hard to decide. But I think that for most parents to realize, even if they’re struggling at all through this change with their child is to realize that there is nothing wrong with you, you’re not a bad parent, you’re not. There’s nothing wrong with you for feeling or thinking the things that you do. And you’re totally 100% capable of becoming the parent that you want to be, you just have a human brain. And it’s all about learning how to manage that brain and to create the life that you want going forward.

Susan Crockett: And that is amazing. Okay, so thank you so much, Margot. I want our listeners to be sure to know where to be able to find you if they want to work with you.

Margot Hanley: Yeah. So I have a website called Gender Family Support, and .com, and then I also have a Facebook page called genderfamilysupport.com, where I post and then I invite people to join a private group, because for a lot of my clients, anonymity is a very big thing.

Susan Crockett: Right, I imagine so.

Margot Hanley: Is privacy, yeah, so they come to my business page to find me but then they join my private group to become part of the discussion.

Susan Crockett: So cool. And of course since you’re one of our virtuosa coaches, they can always find you and learn more about you at virtuosacoaching.com. So we’re going to put the links to all of those things for our listeners in the podcast notes. And I want to thank you so much for chatting with me today; this was great, thank you.

Margot Hanley: Thank you, Sue, it was good to be here.

Alright, so what I have shown you today, first of all I take care of all kinds of people. We are all way, way, way more complex than we identify ourselves to be on the surface. Today we have shown you three skills for handling complexity in life, for developing that skill of being comfortable with not knowing or not placing people into boxes.

And so your assignment for this week is to think about resisting the urge to categorize people as like you or not like you, or with you or against you, or better than or less than you. I want you instead to practice these three skills about handling complexity of life and to practice having compassion and love for yourself and others, no matter how complex they are and how different they may seem from you. We are all way more alike than we give ourselves credit for.

Right, so here we come to the part of the show where we talk about what we’re listening to and reading, so much fun. For the song this week I picked a song called Time Precious Time by Lindsey Buckingham. This is from his album, Gift of Screws, which was a solo album that he put out after leaving this little band you might have heard, called Fleetwood Mac, yeah, he was part of Fleetwood Mac.

And I picked this song, not just because it highlights in the lyrics about how precious time is and how we don’t want to waste a bit of it in our relationships, and in loving our friends and families. We don’t want to miss out on the opportunities to be there and experience life together, that’s like all we have. But musically the song is incredibly complex, it is just the most complicated rippling, beautiful guitar piece and just written, I just have so much respect for Lindsey Buckingham for this beautiful piece of music. So I hope you enjoy that.

What I am reading this week is a book called Illuminate, it’s by Nancy Duarte and Patti Sanchez. So Nancy is one of my favorite authors for learning how to do storytelling and presentations. Her books resonate, that one, and her other one, Slideology, are must, must reads if you are somebody who is telling stories, becoming a teacher, maybe you already are a teacher, if you’re writing stories, whatever you’re doing, she just does a beautiful job of talking about how to engage with your audience, how to tell story.

This book, Illuminate, is specifically about how to ignite change through speeches, stories, ceremonies and symbols. So pick up a copy of that, you can find it on Amazon; it’s called Illuminate by Nancy Duarte.

And what I’m watching obviously, Harrison Ford and Anne Heche, the 1998 classic, Six Days, Seven Nights. Alright, you all, it’s a little hooky, but really cute movie, very worthwhile Saturday morning watch with your significant other.

Alright, our next coaching interview next week, so happy to be talking with Neil Williams. Neil is going to be maybe giving you all a break; we’ve had some pretty heavy topics over the last couple of weeks. We’re going to be talking about overcoming overwhelm next week. I know this is going to be hugely important for a lot of you, a lot of us are struggling with overwhelm with the current circumstances in our world. And I would highly encourage you to share this podcast with your friends who may be experiencing overwhelm. It comes out next Wednesday.

And I want to thank you for listening this week. That’s all I’ve got this week. And I want you to have a wonderful week, practice loving and love always, Sue. I will see you next week in episode 21. I don’t believe that, we’re all the way up to episode 21 already. Bye.

Female Announcer: Thanks for listening to this episode of Becoming Virtuosa. If you want to find out more, come check out virtuosacoaching.com. That’s virtuosa - with an A - coaching.com. See you next week.

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